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Interview with the
Minister
- Part 2 of 2
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MP3 Part 1 of 2
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The following is part two of an interview with ICG minister, Chris
Cumming which took place between 29-31 December 2011.
To see part one of this sermon, go here.
Q: How
can members know that the ICG minister is a true minister?
A: By
reading, understanding and invoking Matthew 7:15-20 which identifies
true from false ministers.
Q: What
is the acid test for identifying true ministers who preach the truth
from the Word of God?
A: See our
in-depth study on the subject: [Click
here] which says this from the Wycliffe Bible Commentary:
Matthew 7:15-20
By their fruits. The doctrines produced by these false prophets, rather
than the works they perform, since outward appearances may not cause
suspicion. The test of the prophet is
his conformity to Scripture (1
Corinthians 14:37; Deuteronomy 13:1-5). -end
quote-(emphasis mine)
1 Corinthians 14:37
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him
acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments
of the Lord.
Deuteronomy 13:1-5
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and
giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee,
saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let
us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer
of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love
the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his
commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave
unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death;
because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which
brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house
of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God
commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the
midst of thee.
Clearly speaking to the words of the prophet, not his actions or
behavior.
Q: Is the
minister protected by God from constructive criticism, questions,
inquiries or suggestions from the flock?
A:
Absolutely not. Both the Word of God and the administration of the
church have safeguards and procedures for members of the flock regarding
the ministry including the
Matthew 18 process. It is important that the Matthew 18
Process be carried out specifically as God intended. Most Matthew
18 processes in the history of the church were incorrectly conducted.
Mr. Armstrong stated this to me personally and I believe in a sermon or
two.
Q: Are
members and ministers protected from unrighteousness judgment, railing
accusations, personal attacks, smiting, demonizing and character
assassination?
A: No, but
if these things are coming from firstfruits, they are in danger of
judgment and the lake of fire. No firstfruit is justified to
invoke such elements.
Matthew 24:50-51
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for
him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the
hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Q: Where
do you get inspiration for sermons you preach and papers you
write?
A: From the
same source members do, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Notice
this from the second-to-the-last paragraph of our
doctrine on the Bible:
In summary, Christians should study the Bible diligently, respect it as
the Word of God and seek its guidance through the inspiration of the
Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 16:13) and the teachings of the Church. In
order to become like God, we must seek to understand the Bible, which is
the clearest expression of the mind of God. This we can only hope to
achieve through profound and regular Bible study, and through the
internalized implementation of its precepts and values.
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy [Spirit], whom the Father will send
in my name, [it] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to
your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 16:13
Howbeit when [it], the Spirit of truth, is come, [it] will guide you
into all truth: for [it] shall not speak of [itself]; but whatsoever
[it] shall hear, that shall [it] speak: and [it] will shew you things to
come.
Q: Is
this inspiration of the Holy Spirit total?
A: Not
according to our doctrine. In our first-posted doctrine entitled,
"Primary
Doctrines" in the twelfth paragraph says:
"Only the
Bible itself claims total inspiration."
Unquestionably we can see why the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is not
total with the ministry when compared to the Word of God. The Word
of God is perfect. The ministry is made up of a group of fallible
human beings going through the same Salvation Process the member are.
Q: What does
this mean regarding the sermons and papers of the minister?
A: It
clearly does not mean that the rest of this inspiration process is left
to opinion. The minister, like the member is constantly moving
toward living, [and therefore preaching], by every word of God [Matthew
4:4].
Q: What do
you and the ministers do?
A: We follow
the admonition Paul gave the new minister, Timothy:
2 Timothy 2:15-16
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not
to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more
ungodliness.
2 Peter 3:13-14
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a
new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent
that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Q: Can
you be taken down by the same scriptures that speaking to the
qualifications of a minister?
A:
Absolutely not. 1 Timothy 3:1-13, the qualifications for ministers
and deacons are used by man as God puts the specific individuals into
the ministry. You will find no example or even church
administration policy where these scriptures are used to remove the
individual from the ministry. See, "Qualifications
of a Minister...WRONGLY USED!!"
Q: So
what is used to remove a man from the ministry for cause?
A: What
justifies the removal of a man from the ministry is
openly
sinning without repentance, heresy,
apostasy,
falling away, or invoking abomination against the Holy Spirit [unpardonable
sin or lying to the Holy Spirit - Acts 5].
Q: Once
called, do firstfruits retain free choice?
A: Yes, they
do, but clearly their options or number of possible choices goes way,
way down. They no longer have the almost limitless number of
choices people in the world do. They cannot murder, steal, commit
adultery, engage in sexual perversion, lie, cheat, or engage in what we
call works of the flesh.
Q: I
understand that aspect, but in your Minister Notebook piece, "It's
all about Godly Calling" and your paper, "Leaving
an Organization" seem to clearly indicate in your thinking that our
choices are even more limited. Is this true?
A: Going
back to Matthew 4:4 and "living by every word of God" show me where any
servant of God made his or her own choices and/or were allowed to keep
those choices. Jonah ran away - a free choice - but he still had
to do what God commanded him to do. Look at the massive amount of
examples of biblical servants always doing everything God said.
What did the disciples do with free choice?
And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them. –Matthew
21:6
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. –John
15:14
Q: Okay,
but you state that firstfruits cannot even chose where they will live or
what they do for a living. Is this true?
A:
Absolutely true. James says that you can pick a city or career
with your free choice and God just might honor it, but then gives the
strong admonition:
For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this,
or that. -James 4:15
[emphasis mine].
Q: You
must admit that I have free choice to keep the commandments and
doctrines of God if I wish to. Right?
A: Anyone in
the world can, via free choice, embrace a Godly principle [fruit of the
Spirit] such as love, joy, peace, honesty, service and excellence.
They can also chose of their free will to keep the commandments.
In both cases they are doing so by their own will power and possibly
some gleaning of Spirit from the Godly principle, which is Spirit.
However, they are not able to keep them anywhere near as fervently or
effectively as one with the Holy Spirit in them.
In addition, the Word of God states clearly that we may only keep the
commandments and doctrines if it be God's will. If you are a
firstfruit, you can assume it is His will that we keep them.
Hebrews 6:1-3
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let
us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance
from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms,
and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of
eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God
permit [emphasis mine].
Q: So you
are stating that we retain free will but that our attitude should always
be, "if it be God's will"?
A: Yes.
God guides us physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually
throughout our calling and we are to do all things according to His
will.
Romans 8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit,
because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of
God.
Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not
after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil
the lust of the flesh.
Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all
men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should
live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the
great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity,
and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
These verses from the mouth of God show clearly that we do not have
freewill the way we had it in the world; not if our desire and goal is
the Kingdom of God.
Q: I see
you have a paper that makes a distinction between
Private Interpretation [or opinion]
vs. Spirit Driven Conclusion. What is spirit-driven conclusion?
A: Without
going to the complete text of the study, Spirit-driven conclusion is a
firstfruit using unction of the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:20) to understand
scripture and biblical principles in such a way to guide us in our
day-to-day journey in the Salvation Process.
Q: Is
Spirit-driven Conclusion just for ministers?
A:
Absolutely not!! All firstfruits have the Holy Spirit and are
asking God to guide their journey from initial calling to the Kingdom of
God.
Q: I
understand that one individual accused you of just inventing the concept
of Spirit-driven conclusion and that only ministers use it and cannot be
questioned about any conclusion they come to. What is your answer
for that person?
A: I did not
invent the concept at all. The Bible is replete with the concept.
He guides us, members and ministers and leaders, by power of the Holy
Spirit. Spirit-driven Conclusion is not a tool of the ministry so
much as it is a God-given tool of the entire congregation. The
more immersed we are in the Word of God and the more we exercise the
Holy Spirit in our lives, the better our conclusions will be. Like
any process, we get better at it as we go along.
Most of these are very private conclusions as you work out your own
Salvation with fear and trembling. If a minister is using
Spirit-driven Conclusion for a portion of a sermon or paper, he is
attempting to apply general or specific biblical principles for a
situation where we do not have a, "Thus saith the Lord" on some given
subject.
Q: What
if a minister is giving a sermon and states a Spirit-driven conclusion.
Can I as a member of the congregation question him about that
conclusion?
A:
Absolutely. You can approach the ministry on ANY spiritual subject
and many physical, emotional and mental subjects depending on your need
and his experience, background, education, spiritual gifts and time in
the ministry immersed in the Word of God.
Q: I
notice throughout your ministry you use the term "Salvation Process."
Isn't that phrase just something of your own invention?
A:
Absolutely not. My first counter-question to you is, "If
Salvation is not a process over time, what is it?" Actually the
term was taken by me from our own doctrinal explanations [the
STP]. The terminology is used no less than twelve [12]
times throughout out doctrinal statements of the STP. See my
Minister Notebook piece,
"Salvation Process" ...where did this phrase originate?
Q: I want
to go back to your paper on
Leaving an Organization. I heard one individual claim that you,
Mr. Cumming,
believe there is absolutely no justification for leaving a church.
Is that true?
A: No.
Again, looking into the Word of God for those justifications, I can find
only five:
1. You die in the faith.
2. The church goes into apostasy [something
usually done at the top levels of the church, such as Worldwide].
3. You have been disfellowshipped for a short period with hopes of
bringing you back to the flock; the stated purpose of all act of
disfellowshipping an individual.
4. One who invokes a self-disfellowshiping act. That is, he or she
is doing something to disrupt the church and/or sinning without
repentance and instead of action being taken by the church, they
disfellowship themselves.
5. Thinking that God called you to Church A when it was actually Church
B. You are justified to leave church A and go to your actually
calling. This is rare.
Q: Are
those the only five justifications?
A: Not
necessarily. Notice the statement I make at the beginning of the
paper,
Leaving an Organization:
----- at the top of the paper, "Note:
I offer this only as a discussion. You must provide the final
answer."
-----at the bottom of the paper, "You make the call."
Q: Can
any firstfruit member, using their freewill, leave an organization for
any of a thousand or ten-thousand reasons?
A:
Absolutely. However, they must find the justification for their
actions in the Word of God and work out all your decisions before the
throne of God. He is judging you about your leaving; not the ministry, membership or
the church. I currently only have these five justifications and most are rare.
Q: One
member recently stated that he felt justified to leave the church for,
"bad or non-existent leadership." Do you, Mr. Cumming, feel this
is a valid justification.
A: No I
do not, depending on his definition of "bad." If "bad" is
denoting heresy, he should take appropriate action by invoking Matthew
18, meeting with the minister in question and/or contacting Mr. Stan
Roberts through your AC [if you have one]
depending on the situation. If your definition of "bad" denotes
your personal dislike of the minister or you feel he is not feeding you,
I would want to counsel with such a person further. In addition, I
would want to see his biblical president for leaving. See three
related papers:
"I'm just not being fed over there"
"Headquarters Just Isn't Showing Any Leadership!"
Leadership of the Church - Questions and Answers
Q: Regarding the
Salvation Process, just how much, percentage-wise,
is the member involved?
A: The
answer is easy:
----- God: 100% involved.
----- Christ: 100% involved.
----- The member: 100% involved.
Each does his part. The Salvation Process is ALL about 100%
involvement of the firstfruit to the elements of that process. The
process takes place over time. It is Action-Focused. The
firstfruit must invoke fervency, diligence, zeal and perseverance on a
continual basis.
The actions taken by the firstfruit are dictated by God and Christ via
the Word of God and unction of the Holy Spirit.
Q: Does
this mean that the Holy Spirit even decides for me what I will eat for
breakfast tomorrow morning or what route I will take to the Feast, etc.?
A: Yes and
no. The Bible still says that I must live by every word of God.
What does God's word say about my health and what I eat. What does
God's Word say about trip planning and considering ability, safety,
efficiency and feasibility? You tell me.
Q: I
noticed that you recently referred to a preaching technique you use that
you call, "statement-scripture." Where did this term originate?
A: I have
heard this term going back 40 years or so. Actually the various
terms were:
1. Statement-scripture
2. Question-scripture
3. Point-Reason-Proof
The third term was taught in Spokesman and Graduate clubs. In all
cases, the minister constructs a statement or question from scripture.
Examples:
1. What are the wages of sin according to the Book of
Romans? Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death...
2. What is the primary gift of God according to the
Book of Romans? Romans 6:23 ...but the gift of God is
eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This is the absolute safest preaching technique and the one I primarily
use. The question came from the very verse that answers the
question.
An example of Point-Reason-Proof would be:
1. Point. The wages of sin is death.
Romans 6:23
2. Reason. The result is death because sin
is corruptible and things corruptible cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
3. Proof:
1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Corinthians 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in
corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Psalm 49:9
That he should still live for ever, and not see
corruption.
Q: You
have posted papers that speak to numbers of members not being a
necessary indicator of anything? Why do you feel this way?
A: Because
it is clearly indicated in scripture. Long before the foundations
of the world were laid, God knew who He would call.
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the
world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.
Clearly God can change His mind at times and take a different action but
these two verses, among others, make it clear. Only God can call a
person to the Salvation Process and He made His choices before the
foundation of the world. Therefore if God's will is that 23
individuals will be called in 2013, there will be 23 individuals called
in 2013. Surely God manipulates the spread of the gospel and other
elements to insure that His will is carried out. Numbers are not
dictated or produced by the will or sole action of a man.
Q: What
is your feelings from a ministerial point of view regarding the use of
social networks such as Facebook?
A: I am one
minister who does not find favor or much benefit in social networks for
a number of reasons. My primary concern is protection of my
personal data in my fight against identity theft. Second, while I
had my Facebook account, I did not feel in control of it. It is
not a good means of communication or even spreading the gospel.
Some members established an unofficial Facebook account for the ICG but
it was often attacked in the form of debate or verbal abuse.
Another primary concern I have with it is that the minister cannot
effectively control his scheduling via social networks. Answers to
e-mails can be schedules whereas engaging in conversations via these
networks is not.
Q: What
then are your feelings regarding phone calls and on-line messenger
software?
A: Again,
these cannot be readily scheduled. Clearly I enjoy receiving phone
calls from family members and friends in the congregation but phone
calls can eat up time in a hurry. I remember that in the days of
the original church one was encouraged to only call the minister on the
phone during a one or two-hour period of the day, say 9-11 AM except for
emergences. Clearly it was a consideration as much as forty and
fifty years ago. It is much more so in this high tech age where
virtually everyone in the congregation has a phone with them whereever
they go.
Q: I
understand you use and recommend the use of a mentor or two in your
ministry. How does this work?
A: I
actually have two mentors for my ministry. One is a man while the
other is a woman. The latter is well versed in the scriptures and
has much experience in the history of the church and being at
Headquarters for a number of years. The man is a brother minister
in the ICG and what I call our resident Bible scholar in the church.
He receives a copy of virtually every e-mail I send out in answer to a
Bible question and every e-mail I send to other ministers. He is
on the e-mail mailing list for the Bible Study group and just recently
pointed out some errors in two letters we covered in our Survey of the
Letter Answering Department. Those letters are now being
corrected/improved. Every minister in the ICG should have a mentor
or two.
---end of interview as of 31 December 2011.---
Note: This paper is not necessarily completed. As
other questions arise about the ministry and specifically my ministry, I
will be adding to this piece.
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