SUBJECT:     Heaven

QUESTION:   Do not 1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Corinthians 12 show that man goes to and/or has been in heaven.

ANSWER

The idea of going to heaven when you die is a very important doctrine and therefore, if true, must be made very clear in the Bible.  You would think you would see a scripture that would say in effect:

"When you die, you go to heaven to be with the Lord"

"When we all meet in heaven"

"When we are all in heaven"

"The dead are in heaven"

Anything that would show that as fact.  There just IS NOT any verse like that.

Now, let us look at your verses.

1Thessalonians 4:13-17

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Note:

Verse 13:  Who are those that are asleep?  He could not be talking about someone in heaven who is awake and moving around.  He is talking here about the dead.

Verse 14:  God is still talking about those that are dead in the grave.  He says that those who sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  He explains this in verse 16.  Also, this is talking only about a very few people, "those in Jesus".  This is talking about the firstfruits; those that were baptized and received the Holy Spirit in their lifetime.

Verse 15:  Clearly talking about the return of Christ.  There are some people alive when He returns including firstfruits and even they will not be able to stop the dead in their graves from being resurrected (the first resurrection).

Verse 16:  What could be more clear?  The dead rise up out of the grave and are turned into Spirit beings.  They rise up in the air to meet Jesus alone with those firstfruits that are alive (next verse).

Verse 17:  About those firstfruits still alive: They too, are changed to Spirit beings and rise up to meet Jesus who is on His way DOWN.  This verse says that we will meet Him in the "clouds" and in the "air".  There are neither clouds nor air in heaven where God and Jesus are now.  This is talking about the firstfruits (dead and alive) being changed to Spirit and rising up to meet Jesus as He is coming down to take over the governments of this earth.

There is NOT one word here that states or shows that the dead rise up to go to heaven.  You state in your e-mail:

"If you read ALL of 1Thessalonians 4, it says that God will call us to be with Jesus (who is in heaven...)"

This is ABSURD.  Verse 16 clearly says that Jesus is DESCENDING.... FROM heaven so your statement "who is in heaven" is absolutely wrong.

There is NO statement in 1 Thessalonians 4 where it states that we are being called to be with Jesus.  There IS a verse in 1 Thessalonians 4 that states that God is "calling us unto holiness".  That means we (the firstfruits) are being called to be like Christ.  Nothing here about heaven.

Now to 2 Corinthians 12

2 Corinthians 12:1-21

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.

16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

17 Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you?

18 I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps?

19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.

20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest

there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Note:  Surely you are not using this chapter to try to win the bet.  This is Paul talking about a vision where he was taken up to the 3rd heaven.  It was a vision.  We know this by the following scripture:

John 3:13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Note:  Jesus is saying this.  No man hath ascended up to heaven.  The Bible was inspired by God.  He would not have allowed this verse to be recorded if He knew that Paul was going to be taken up to Heaven.  He would not have allowed this verse to stand if a few years later He was going to allow Paul up to heaven.

The Gospel of John was written at the end of the first century.  Halley's Bible Handbook set the date at 90 AD.

2nd Corinthians was written in 54 or 55 AD.

Therefore, how could John say that no one had ascended to heaven IF Paul was saying he went there some 35 years earlier?  Answer:  Paul was never in heaven.  It was a vision.  Paul even states that it was possible that it was a vision.  He never states definitely that he was in heaven.  And remember that God is the author of the Bible and He would never allow such an obvious flaw.  He would also not allow scripture like this to be written (no han hath ascended...) if it was going to be null and void.  How many people do you know who have made a note in their Bibles by John 3:13 that says, "No, no, Paul was there."

None of the commentaries (I read 5 in preparation of this reply) are willing to state that Paul actually went to heaven and actually spend much of their words talking about visions.